tv Conflict Zone - Guest Zoltan Kovacs Hungarian government spokesperson Deutsche Welle October 5, 2017 2:30pm-3:00pm CEST
free the. d. w. dot com or the freedom. fighters the new season of radio crime thrillers begins. for investigative pieces that will keep you on your choice of. crime fighters stories of the best idea ever so every young person needs to listen to crime fighters and share tell a friend tell a friend to fight. crime fighters. the e.u. is getting increasingly fed up with hungary its refusal to take a share of migrants and refugees and a whole raft of new regulations and laws my guest here in budapest is sultan kovacs the prime minister's international spokesman how long is this government going to keep playing the bad boy in brussels.
its all time covered welcome to come to exult thank you for your escalating rounds with the e.u. and other bodies you seem determined to take this to a major rift why. reviews to work here ask ali have you been driven just yet smaller which i don't think are appropriate here because. we see tendencies in the decision making procedures in the life of the european union we don't like we name that that's been our politics policy making for the past seven years there are major bones of contention and yes that is the only way in our belief that's our experience to sort out real problems is to name that now and that is talk about them in a frank manner in
a way that can assure that at the end of the discussion if you like a debate a fierce debate at times the solution is that intelligence very reasonable the way you will discussing it but actually it's not getting any better is it and you yourself have said the fight is just at the beginning the front of the debate is you're betting that there are issues and topics in which you are going to be unrelenting so you're prepared for you know if we have to fight this we're going to go for it one lesson we've learned for the past seven years not necessarily in the field or in the by the topic of illegal migration which is in the focus for the past two three years economic matters our own constitution it was worth taking the fight because at the end of the day turned out that we were right and that we don't like to be vindicated that's not very wise if you're a politician or you if you run the country still that's a lesson to be able to put
a past seven years the e.u. commission has launched an infringement proceedings goes hungry treatment of moguls a few jews that don't like your march twenty seventh in a sign the middle restrictions on civil society organizations legal reforms the dominance of as they put it of pro-government media these these are serious issues on that and they are getting away with it. we've seen so many topics so many charges rather against hungary for the past seven years that again this is nothing new so we go for them because you don't take them seriously we didn't i mean how can you how can you take it more serious than you go for a legal debate because and at the end of the day it's going to be sorted out legally and you went to the european court of justice liturgy. they turned down a question on whether it was possible legally to make a decision like that back in two thousand and fifteen and face off decisions about a mandatory quote yes phone for if something in place of two previous decisions on behalf of the heads of state which clearly said no to that we face
a problem here we have knowledge the decision because apparently legally it was possible to do so but immediately for it we face a very serious political and yet again legal problem and you acknowledge the decision that's right your foreign minister actually is on record saying politics has raked european law and rate european values this decision practically openly legitimizes the power of the e.u. above the member status ready and then that's what the setting aside that inflammatory language what kind of e.u. did you think you belong to well there we face a serious political issue which eventually becomes a legal issue and that is how decision is done decisions are made in the european union that this is nothing new well you knew that the e.u. member states have no legal right to resist those orders and that's a real problem because i get that again goes against the most important word idea philosophically if you like within the european that is consensus if it's possible
to do so and up to this members are required to accept the judgment of the e.u. sometimes given it is possible to go around even legally rightly go around political consensus in your opinion that doesn't make sense of it and then it's happened back in two thousand and fifteen in fleet of e.u. law takes precedence over domestic law in the e.u. you e.u. law is part of domestic law yet you have to you have to involve you in arcade it into your know if you wanted to engage in a legal that we all know that even though it's a particular law as it is being called it's not international law it is as if it's right and lawful in it is incorporated into the member states legal system and. that's where we face a problem because for the past seven years even more we face a tendency and that is the stealth mode of decision making and on the formulation and on the standing of legal possibilities in the european union's decision making
process that is tending to all be right what is in the treaty but that's nothing new in the states of experience there that you didn't read the small print did you when you joined the e.u. if it's nothing new for you it's probably not for us it is because you know there are limits there are red lights we've drawn and suddenly decided what they are now we suddenly bump into some serious problems and that is our sovereignty who shall decide and listen to the exit argument and that's right about that gratitude be a lesson actually to brussels bureaucracy because it's it's not of course it's an outcome of problems regarding the relationship of brussels of is of the them but you went to the court to see if they would overturn the ruling the mandatory quotas they didn't so you accepted the jurisdiction of the court as i do that and the court turned you down now you don't accept the result and we have accepted the you have acknowledged the result even though is it generally accept it we have a change in your behavior you have acknowledged that legally it was possible to
make a temporary a decision on a temporary measurement which we believe again politically is not right because that goes against the consensus on the higher political level we still believe that the highest political decision making body. is the car so mitchell my point my point is you are not going to accept those quotas are you we are not going to accept the court that that's despite the ruling of the court because you were locked up because you're bad losers that no no the question is not you went to the court court told you that you're a bad loser but a bad loser would be to sacrifice his lot of things in when but be a second transit a lot of things for a reason and that is that's a sovereignty issue. even in temporary decision we are not accepting any composer of decision who shall we live together in a country we have no. given our debt that element of our sovereignty and we're never going to give it a bit give it up and we still whatever it takes however fire you have to push this we are going to use all political and legal means actually to go against that that's right in march last year your prime minister spoke condescendingly of flocks
of obsessed human rights defenders feeling the overwhelming urge to reprimand us and make allegations against us and that's been the case for the past couple of years that's where you you join the club you sign up to various commitments they're going to review your progress that's that's the point of joining the club why complain about it. i'm trying to every drawing terms on them and everybody comes on the period about doing to move this discussion into some something reasonable. it's our vision of how to take human rights how the soft elements of cooperation in the european union rule of law constitutional issues going a brazen principle and if you don't like being held to account you know know it and then the subject that's not the case the think is that there is a sense that human rights defenders you don't we want to we want to avoid making it go you want to avoid the kind of review we want to avoid that something an
interpretation is taking over the right sense of the word we have agreed to and that's what is happening the blade a point about this is that you don't feel that the europe you joined is a valid your opinion more you said your government now apparently sees itself as protector of european values your prime minister said twenty seven years ago here in central europe we believe that europe was our future today we feel that we are the future so why do such as you what you've suggested here this from a man who boasted in twenty four to you know what i mean a real king with the dogmas and ideologies that have been adopted by your question suggested something which is completely untrue. we are not breaking away from the european values and the perception we had we stick to it and that's the difference others are trying to make is something different we have agreed to you believe that you are the future of europe we believe that that hundred that's quite
a tall order for one goal jairzinho yes sure but hungary is not standing alone i mean if you take a look as for the past special two years what are the bad boys in the european union you can name that better let's let's talk serious the central european country is eventually more than ten years after their accession to the european union has come to their. full fledged perception of how they believe the opinion should be working and i believe this is something new there are some european powers divest a member states have to cope with and that is central european countries for an obvious reason that is historical source of logical economic reasons a legacy we carry here have a say and different say about how we think about the opinion and you should better listen listen to it it's not against europe it's a different slightly different version actually where else should have said listen to it yet what i mean the west is turning down what you stand for your illiberal democracy in april even the center right grouping in the european parliament the
p.p.p. which includes your party for this war knew that it would not accept any basic freedoms being restricted or the loose rule of law being nobody's recent any fear that that they're not buying your explanations that they are by we've we've been through that for a past couple of years and same economy very low to prove that we have to hang on in line with european regulations as a matter of fact sticking better more to the regulatory lined or out lines that have been there and others we are able to refurbish our economy so there are lessons western europe should if not learn at least a fluke because they took a look at they don't like it it it made. aliment condemned what it called a serious deterioration of the rule of law like in that democracy many fundamental rights and so this is the name of the game if it's about cooperation and discussion the end of the day you have to reach consensus it's impossible that the best in european countries because states group of states enforces something and others
what they don't like so that's not going to work and that's that if you ask about the can you tell you that you're a member of a club and the club has rules and you're not accepting the rules but the rules should be based on consensus. based on majority action again consensus here is very important palooka you trumpet your european while yours in the us is telling you we're not buying political consensus goes beyond simple majority give a half start for the belgian prime minister not raise the rebellious he's a great friend of hungary yes that's right yeah he said you signed up to the values of the union you have violated every single word. my question is. is a great friend of hungary and being ironic here has been accusing he's been throwing us various things which have nothing to do with reality but the thing is again he's not alone in that in your is not alone in his criticism city his now but he belongs to one particular cell the lines really like you human rights organization this also this your own n.g.o.s criticize the so-called liberal
mindset obviously doesn't like what happens here in hungary because we go against their dogma which is trying to. ensure that all achievements in the european union are being called liberal that's what we deny coming back to your liberal party you know there's a very nice sentence on behalf of the prime minister which are took us a couple of years to formulate very shortly but it's very nice and this is liberalism is fine it's not the liberal sweden elections and i believe this is what we talk about here political differences a different mindset is not to put all the right what what and they are the real nature of europe and decision making and how the future of europe and that is everything is based on consensus and consensus is more than a simple majority mistaken about a ship why bother with the e.u. if you're determined to break with it dogma and ideologies as you put it why bother it is it just the money the five point six billion new get that it was it's billion euros you get every year because it doesn't money that's another favorite point
here which is being brought up if you take a look at how hunger is corporate in with european institutions and the european integration it would be made because hungary with campaigns like let's hope brussels and economic brussels in most issues i would rather say that ninety five percent of those issues actually we have consensus on and we work together hungary is fully cooperating as a man i think they'll be worth five point six billion euros a year when you're running campaigns directly against the organization that gives you this money you bring in here another topic which has nothing to do with human rights and the soft elements of corporations you mean the cohesion funds and the support hungary and other european countries mostly center on the eastern european but also some european countries received from the budget and not a gift. as a matter of fact they go back to the very foundations of the european union and they tend to gloss or rather than the goal that task is to close the gap between
the development differences in the your pena we have opened up our markets disadvantaged position for the best in europe you've opened up your market your staging what your prime minister called a revolution against the alliance of the bureaucrats brussels the liberal media and the insatiable financier if it's also rotten in brussels and the finances so insatiable why keep on taking their money have you have you ever been involved in running a state even see a town or a large and recovering body you know that going against brock recy is a legitimate call. brocket it tends to inflame brussels as rock yes because in many many respects the what the writers aim with it why not go with it you put a kind of how we saw the exit you put the question which have never never been raised by the anger in government if you take a look at the government positions behavior that hungary and populations support for the european idea values it's unquestionable so it's a false argument it's
a force narrative that is being used against us. are not going to play that game when i don't but chancellor merkel has already suggested that you may have financial penalties to cope with that the a.t.m. machine is going to be switched off haven't she she's already said anyone who rejects this solidarity she means side with the migrants must accept that this will not be without consequences including for negotiations of the future financial support yet again you cry out for that you're trying to suggest here something which i just simply not true again when people come in you what you said actually over what is coming from the western european countries what is coming from the european budget to hungary and countries like is not a gift it is to ensure that equal access to the markets competitiveness and other the issues can be achieved and for there and for that reason as a matter of fact the cohesion front of some of his money coming here and mostly
going back to western europe is a mutually beneficial construction. now take a look at mr at inger's words at some point maybe a year ago he was very clear about the benefit the beneficial nature of the creation that you and the people in new york put that money and that money is going better invest in europe and there are people going to find you like party who seem to want to head for the exit but a man called salt by probably didn't commit his name correctly he said in july on the local t.v. station here if the e.u. continues along its current path then we have to leave the union leave this whole scalding pigsty as he put it we need to get the hell out we have to close our borders and let the rest of the rot in which the buyer is not a member of the government is a co-founder of your party sure but he personally have no family obviously those bad again he's probably loners if you try to put up here a completely misleading and force narrative. and you want to accept that's not of those quote i don't know but you want to stop that there are legitimate claims
legitimate issues on which we have to talk differently especially in the light of what happened with the european union for the past ten fifteen years and then you're seriously wrong because when we name problems when we call for issues which are not with the main stream in european public opinion especially the liberal public opinion or liberal political opinion. we like that fight because we believe that that's the territory where the fight should be done you like a vital so you like a fight also about christian values don't you. you can't deny claim to be upholding christian values but you cannot deny the very foundations of european culture do but you ignore the pope's call to exhibit those same christian values and open your doors to migrants that you are. really feel you're a follower that oakley was or you were so he said he is you also have to know that the religious commands and politics sometimes aren't contrary because your first responsibility when it's about taking care of those who are in need goes for your
own people that sounds good but that. same time he is a leader of hundreds yet again when we talk about a religious leader of hundreds of millions of people and your state and central europe that you think you know better about religious values and what christianity christian values are than he that you have a point that is an extraordinary position to be in isn't we don't talk about religion proper here we talk about those foundations on which europe itself the continent and the european union is based but i'm not sure it's on what basis do you lay claim to being the protectors of christian values in europe and that because apparently for expression for the past couple of years western europe is tending to forget what those values mean and who you to judge when the judge and we are trying to pull the religion we have we're just trying to portray what is happening and this is you know if you want your religious credentials. if you don't name a problem if you don't name that we are shifting away from our own values and give
you giving up your own where it was doesn't mean the very anything good actually for the future of the european continent or especially for the european union if you take a look at the their predecessors impounding fathers if you like of european politicians the firmly believe that europe should be based on christianity if not religious proper religious terms but certainly culturally and if you refer to way shift away from that is going to cause very serious problems look looking around and looking at this is this look around the globe nobody's nobody's playing that game but there's a lot is there isn't that there's a disconnect you claiming to protect christian values in the same tone your authority is accused of illegal action including deny entry to arresting some really rejecting and returning refugees using disproportionate force of migrants and refugees as well as reportedly assaulting journalists and yet there you are standing up claiming as i said i see we do have here a serious linguistic problem as well because you stick to the word refugees and we
stick to the reality that this is not a refugee right if you don't see the migrants there is a migrant asylum seekers who are part of a larger intercontinental mass migration wave and we stand here unprepared are all tools and methods are not working and as a matter of fact we have defenseless in place of what is happening so that first inherent differences in the face of twelve hundred people that the e.u. wants an island defenseless in the face of two million who came in the past two years discovered one of the other big bones of contention between the hungry in the involves the central european university which has been founded by. hunger inborn philanthropist george soros operated here for the last twenty five years or even a graduate of it was right got a ph d. in history your prime minister has called the university a fraud and accused it of cheating did you go to a university that cheat. well i've attended the university which has provided.
value our educational support for many hungary and many central europeans but we are talking about now for the past year is not about that it's about regulations and you just changed which to which center european universities and twenty seven others were not coming up so when we change regulations and this is a rule of law that's what you claim that the hundred should be there can be no exceptions but the real issue is not the regulations is that the real issue is that it was founded by george soros against whom your prime minister has a personal vendetta personally this is this is a man who's talked about the soros plan indeed this is a very interesting action plan that describes exactly how disobedient nonimmigrant central european countries should be transformed into immigrant countries and in this dishonest has got under your prime minister skin indeed this is a very interesting discussion because your questions and accusations seem to be
reflecting reality which which is not is not the case with the sheriff named himself as a political actor. europe wide but also in the massively in hungary in the previous in a number of previous interviews as a matter of fact going back to two thousand and fifteen they claim to become a political actor in this country and if you wanted to become you know some news you know use but he hasn't got a democratic mandate for that it's not a it's not about technicalities the university it's about him it's not just on the companies in your crack down on the central european university is because it's been you seriously believe that it's a technicality that you need the democratic mandate to become a political actor when you start your minister of human capacities let the cat out of the bag zoltan balog he said you know the existence of a strong or thomas an internationally recognised university is in hungary's interest but it's not in our interest to have players in the background who can see . spy ring against the democratically elected government so it's all about sars
doesn't it that's right that's what it's all about size is not about the university or its regulations where its laws but any situation about him when an institutional network or elements of it are being used for political purposes without them democratic mandate we face a serious problem here is the shorter seven being given a democratic mandate many of those who work in those frameworks and networks actually he's running his money's running have never been given a democratic mandate to represent what they represent as a matter of fact they do not simply represent what they do they go for it they try to push this through that the idea that he's trying to push you to accept my goodness this is a man who wrote. the e.u. cannot coerce member states to accept refugees they do not want all refugees to go where they are not wanted he actually supports your opinion he's not trying to coerce you to become anything at all as you as well you know or didn't you read that article mr short has written many things as a matter of fact in most of his writings it's
a completely different picture what you see emerging and that is going back to two thousand and fifteen and that particular writing or lecture is still available this was september two thousand three hundred sixty light sent to you last year in the know here back in two thousand and fifteen september here suggested at the peak of the migration crisis completely different things as a matter of fact he has taken action talking to peters of the european using his influence through the framework. of the shorrosh network also their european union's institutional framework to make his ideas happen on the ground zero reason why this is a very serious very briefly because we really don't have time even to let this university function if we come up to the expectations yes of course to you doing in your heels on look again you expect hungary work as a rule of law if there are rules everybody should come up to them and if other universities including the american universities are able to come up then it's
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